Detroit, the “Motor City”, the fourth largest city in population (1.8 million) in 1950, has declared bankruptcy, and has shrunk to 700,000 population in 2010.
This city, which was the center of industrial expansion, success, and prosperity in the first two thirds of the 20th century, is the largest entity in America ever to declare bankruptcy!
At least $18 billion in debt, the impact of this bankruptcy will likely cause further decline of the once great city, which is now a total disaster in relation to housing abandonment, crime, destruction of education, and the total deterioration of the quality of life for those who remain.
And the idea that those who have devoted their lives to working for the city–as cops, firefighters, teachers, social workers and others–will now be likely to lose their pensions in their old age, is totally unconscionable, totally immoral! Why would anyone ever wish to work another day for a government that will not keep the legal agreements to its employees who devote their lives to service, often at much lower rates than workers in the private sector?
If this can happen in Detroit, is that a warning sign that other cities, and state governments, could also cancel all obligations to their workers, and leave them impoverished in their old age?
Are governments now to become no different than corporations who too often cheat their workers out of a hard earned pension, while the elite at the top continue to enrich themselves in a greedy manner?
If this becomes a trend, it will not be surprising if we see people unwilling to work for government at all levels, and that will lead to chaos and anarchy, as we cannot allow all government workers, or any of them, to be so totally mistreated and disregarded as if they are willing “slaves” who can be kicked around as no better than garbage!
Detroit the perfect example of the lefts best efforts.
You sound gleeful, Dave, which is sickness! And the Right has done everything correct, Dave? Or are they the source of most of the problems as they declare war on government, as they collect their own salaries and pensions, and do what the corporations are excellent at, screwing of their workers on the state and local levels?
As a conservative patroit, I take no pleasure in seeing the fruits of the lefts policies on my country.
Would you agree that conservatives are not the only patriots, and that progressives can be that also, Dave? Or do you co-opt the term for only conservatives?
Definition:
Conservative Patriot = Reactionary Extreme Teabagger.
The exact type of person the Republican Party is trying to purge from their ranks. The exact demographics I warned Jack Kemp about over 10 years ago.
So is Dave writing policy? Having any true influence on making anything positive happen? Of course not. In the total overall perspective….Professor, he is just not a factor.
I make changes, Dave just pisses and moans.
Engineer of knowledge, definition,, Engineer of Misinformation, LOL
I certainly agree there are patriots of varied political beliefs, its just that the left has done the most harm to our republic, witness Detroit.
No, Dave, the RIGHT has done tremendous damage, including getting us into two wars that added billions to the national debt without a plan to win them. They are the danger to our future, with the neocons and the social conservatives. They want government out of our lives, except in personal manners–what a double and hypocritical standard!
The left has been especially good at assuring defeat in war and driving the national debt up an avg of 2.3 bullion a day since Swept 2012.
The Bush Presidency created the conditions for the growth in the national debt, but the budget deficit has been going down under Obama. Are you drinking the Kool Aid, Dave?
This is truly amazing. Detroit has been governed by the progressive Democrat Party since 1962. They have promised and over-promised nirvana since them. The population went from almost 2 million down to 700k . It spends more dollars per capita than any other major cities, yet only 25% of the High School students graduate. Crime is at an all time high, youth , especially black youth is victim of these progressive destructive policies. Yet the only worry from the post seem to be “Why would anyone ever wish to work another day for a government that will not keep the legal agreements to its employees..?” Never mind that those promises were the culprit to begin with. Never mind that the auto industry was destroyed by the union. Never mind that business were driven out by government regulation. Every single policy that any progressive can dream of was implemented in Detroit. The result? Well if you implement third world policies you get third world results. Crystal clear.Well not so for the left of course.
So, Robert, you want firefighters, police officers, teachers, social workers, to work for years and have no pension benefits for their economic sacrifices and their commitment to the public good? You sound like a typical wealthy person who does not appreciate what public servants do, or you are too lacking in understanding the complexities of city governments which face everyday crises, and have state governments who are out to undermine their cities because of the anti urban mentality of rural interests which often control state governments!
Local politicians, unions and car executives are responsible for this mess. They implemented bad policies, usually populist policies, and they not only mismanaged but were highly corrupt. And what is the end result? Bankruptcy and of course the average man and woman who were suckered into depending on the local government will pay the price. Well also the bond holders as well. This is a story that mirrors third world realities. You can find this in Brazil, Mexico, or any other African, or Middle Eastern country. As well as some European countries, like Greece, Italy, Portugal,or Spain. So I really do not understand what the surprise is, if there is any. This was totally predictable. After all Detroit had the usual problems associated with large, Democrat-dominated cities; out of control spending and political cronyism.So the people of Detroit just went on strike, no with picket lines or sit ins, they just packed up and left. Talking their business and innovations with them. Thus leaving the incompetent and corrupt powers that be in Detroit. Detroit is again proof positive that the public-union collective-bargaining model has utterly failed. Unions just loot the benefit lock box at taxpayer expense until there are no more taxpayers left.
I understand what you are saying, Robert, but is the answer to take away any rights of workers to bargain collectively, so that we go backwards to the pre union period of the early 1930s and earlier, and leave workers to be exploited, and not to have basic benefits and labor rights?
Are you saying that the entire New Deal of FDR should be wiped out, rather than reforming the system, and that we should be throwing out the baby with the bath water? Your complaint is understandable, but getting rid of unions would not solve it, just make the job of being a public sector worker worse than it has always been.
I’m not saying that exactly. In my view, your vision may work when we have two opposing parties with apparent dissimilar interest, employee and employers ( owners of businesses, and even then it’s not the same if it is a small family own business or a corporation where the owners are the stockholders), thus the opposing parties would be employee and management. But with public sector employees in essence there are no opposing parties. At least in Detroit and in the majority of US big cities and even states. You have on the one hand the public sector employees and on the other hand the taxpayers who are supposed to be represented in their interest by the politicians. But the politicians as we have seen over and over again in these cities do not defend the interest of the taxpayer, they defend the interest of the public sector union workers because the public sector union supports with contribution those same politicians to get them elected, which are in the overwhelmingly majority Democrats. I have yet to see a public sector union contribute to a Republican, much less if the candidate is a conservative.
For example just so you get an idea of how ridiculous things have degenerated into. The Detroit Water & Sewer Department (DWSD) still has on its payroll a “horseshoer”, at a costs of some $56,000 in pay and benefits, even though the Department or the City has no horses. Yet local union president said it is “not possible” to eliminate positions. The average DWSD compensation is $86,000, and the Union insist that it needs more employees, in spite of the fact that DWSD has more than twice as many employees per gallon of water pumped as Chicago. http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/17404
Plumbers complained that, due to union work rules, they had to wait to fix pipes until duly authorized “operators†came along first to shut them off. http://www.freep.com/article/20120809/NEWS05/308090260/Detroit-water-department-cut-81-workers-under-new-proposal
These are just a few examples in which it is clear that there are no opposing parties in the negotiations between public sector unions and the politicians. The taxpayers are not represented, and by taxpayers I mean those individuals or entities that do not receive their income from government, that is from taxes. Public sector employees of course pay taxes, but their whole income is derived from taxes in the first place. Thus they are not really contributing nor generating fiscal wealth. In other words they have no skin in the game.
Traditionally one of the reasons employees would seek a public sector job was mainly because of job security and less competitiveness as opposed to the private sector. They would exchange a little less pay for job security. Now over the years that has been turned around, not only do they have job security but even better income between salaries and benefits than those citizens in the private sector who pay the bill in the first place. When FDR said in a letter “Organizations of Government employees have a logical place in Government affairs. The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry” is all true. But there is one difference.Everything that he stated is law today. That is why Federal Public Unions have no collective bargaining power since 1979. And not only are all these issues FDR pointed out law at Federal level but also in the States. And as I said before, contrary to the private sector, in the public sector there are no opposing parties in the negotiations as Detroit, and other cities clearly demonstrate it.
Robert, I commend you for your discussion above, and you give an interesting perspective and analysis, which provides a lot of food for thought! You make a good case for your viewpoint, and I welcome you to the blog as a participant in discussions! You come across as extremely intelligent and perceptive!
All that I ask is that all those who sacrificed their lives to work for the city of Detroit be paid their pensions, particularly those already retired, or else all people who work for any government entity anywhere will be similarly threatened with poverty and deprivation in their old age. This situation could set a horrible precedent!
Oh why yes we agree that it is not fair, (I think though I am not sure) that people who worked all their lives and were promised such things , should suffer. Maybe the correct statement is that it is not convenient that they should suffer, because I am not sure about the fairness part. In any event, it is not convenient for the social peace lets say. So what Detroit must do , I sincerely believe , is generate more revenue by having more taxpayers, and that is done by having more jobs. And since Detroit has been for the last 5 decades over regulating and over taxing the private sector, and the reality shows it has not worked out at all, it should do an about face and for a few years become some sort of tax and regulatory haven within the US. Not that they should do away with common sense regulations , but they should do away with all the ridiculously over burdensome regulations which any fair minded American can distinguish. They only have 700k people and liabilities for more. Of those 700K the majority are not contributing working taxpayers, either by business or employees. So I think they would be truly stubborn to continue doing the same thing over and over again.
Robert, I totally agree with you on what you have just said! It makes total sense, and I hope that will be the outcome of this tragic situation! Thanks again for your commentary!
Ronald, thanks for the invitation to participate in this blog. Being the first time I participate it seems to be a good omen that a progressive as yourself and a conservative as myself have actually agreed on an issue. Given the political rhetoric these days I’m going to check outside and see if there’s not a meteor heading this way!
HAHA! I know it is hard to find ability in today’s climate to “cross the aisle” and agree, and I have no illusions that you and I will agree that often! LOL But as long as we are both respectful of the other, then discussion is always a good thing!
Robert,
May I also commend you on your postings on the subject.
I should add that I am an active Moderate Republican. I have a good friend who is a conservative Republican but I think the world of him. He is well educated and can bring his points across using logical argumentation. I have great respect for that aspect.
I sincerely say “Welcome.”
Excellent post Professor!
Detroit grew rapidly because it produced good jobs that people wanted. The jobs have vanished or gone elsewhere, so Detroit is rapidly shrinking. What about this phenomenon is so difficult to understand?
Detroit may have had corrupt or incompetent mayors and spent too much on services, but the jobs engine built it, and when the jobs engine began to die, Detroit began to die. Jobs, jobs, jobs.
There’s a lesson here for the entire country, as big corporations continue to ship jobs to China and India as fast as they can, and employ as few people here as they can get away with.
I live in a mostly rural area but the small cities near me are facing the same issue – they’re beginning to die because manufacturing jobs have been sent overseas.
A wonderful and insightful posting, Princess Leia! You hit the nail on the head, but conservatives and Republicans do the bidding of the corporations, not the American people, and one wonders how long until the middle class understands that, and stops voting Republican in the heartland, blindly, without reason!
Princess Leia, this is a great human tragedy, but do you see the Republicans in Congress devoting time to this, or instead just throwing verbal bombs at Barack Obama for everything, including original sin?
Because the jobs went away during multiple administrations, I blame both parties.
Princess Leia: There might be some truth to what you say. But shouldn’t we ask ourselves why Detroit lost their jobs? One could argue, the invasion of Japanese cars was the beginning. But Toyota and Mercedes Benz for example invested in the US and open up automobile plants, but not in Detroit, they went to Vance, Alabama I believe. So since capital, that is investment, is free to invest where ever she wants to, should we not ask ourselves why they preferred Alabama instead of Michigan? I guess that what I am trying to say is that, yes some jobs have been exported oversees, but by the same token the US has also received foreign investments and still does. It’s just a matter of understanding why the invest in some states while not in others.
During any crisis, it is always tempting to find a scapegoat. Is Detroit’s municipal meltdown really a whole lot different different than other towns and cities in financial trouble? Well maybe in some ways.
I am no financial expert by any stretch of the imagination. Ask me ANYTHING on healthcare and I can give you concise answers! LOL!. What I am is an interested citizen and I have been doing some reading on the Detroit crises. These are some of the things I have found that make me think the blame does not belong solely on the shoulders of the retirees or the unions!
Sure I recognize many people want to point the finger at some retired cops or a retired widow from the water department, especially when you see an estimate of the pension shortfall at $3.5 billion.
Sweetheart pensions from big salaries and early retirements should be in the critical spotlight. But the vast majority of Detroit’s 19,000 or so retirees receive modest monthly stipends derived from decades of public service patrolling streets, putting out fires, running crucial city departments, and saving lives.
It might be easy to blame them or say they expected way too much from a city job. But I think that is wrong. Really wrong. Why? Well my husband is a federal employee. He works for NOAA. After discharge from the Navy we moved back to his home town. His job in the Navy provided him with experience many companies as well as government agencies were looking for. This was at the end of the Vietnam war. He was fortunate that there is a NASA and NOAA instillation here in a very rural part of Maryland. I mean rural! Jobs with big companies were few and far between and unless you wanted to farm or fish there was not a whole lot to do but this is where family lived and he wanted to live here. Fortunately, the federal government had some training programs to train veterans who had electronics experience in the service. The country was is great need of these skills as we were on the tip of the electronics’s explosion. So he entered the program and has been at NOAA since 1973. He is long past retirement but likes his job and hey folks, the retirement he will receive is OK but certainly NOT what so many people imagine a federal job provides! It’s a myth that every public employee gets rich off tax payer dollars! My husband could easily have taken his specialized skills and training to a large corporation or other new computer and electronic companies being born back then and earned a hell of a lot more money! He chose to stay put and live near family. As a federal employee he does not get social security even though he pays it. He gets his Federal retirement. We have been blessed with good health care through the federal government but hey, that was part of the agreement when he took the job over 40 years ago! Like I said he could have left after a few years and taken his skills to a private company and made more money. I get so sick of people putting public workers down because they chose to work for a city, state or the federal government. I feel those who love to criticize have this unrealistic opinion that the ONLY reason people take government jobs is for greed. That’s a stupid assumption! Now, I am not saying that doesn’t occur. Just one look at our elected congress demonstrates part of their deal IS greed! Those buffoons work a third of the hours of what the average middle class worker works and most of them in congress are millionaires(or becoming millionaires) with perks and pensions to die for and perpetual healthcare all of which we pay for! Believe me the people who work hard to protect, clean and perform the huge plethora of services needed by people all over the country are not receiving the same benefits! And believe me…special interests are not standing behind people like my husband, local firemen, police, teachers, and others needed to keep any city , state or country running and stuffing big bucks in his back pocket for “special†consideration in policy making!
My understanding of Detroit’s problems are essentially the end result of unrestrained capitalism, a whole lot of corruption, bad decisions by BOTH parties all around and a number of other things such as changes in our society such as high tech advancements. For example, the city’s huge population started to fall sharply after 1970. In the heyday of its industrial power, Detroit used to boast of having the highest owner-occupied housing rates in the country thanks to the then-booming auto industry which offered well paying jobs and a gateway in to the middle class. Those jobs are gone, changed due to changes in how we do things..such as automation instead of hands on work. Once with 1.8 million residents the city now struggles with about 700.000 with neighborhood in horrible neglect and destruction. No wonder property values have plummeted. The 1973 oil crises that rocketed gas prices up and the deep recession of the the early 70’s devastated the car industry. I don’t have the numbers but I know that was a gigantic chunk of income for that area. Those well paying jobs had benefited thousands of of other businesses in and around the city as well!
I think one could say car companies built Detroit but I do not think the destruction of Detroit falls just to the car companies.
Some of the problems started to occur when the population began to drop as people moved out of the city and into the suburbs. The city government which had grown during the previous 2 decades and expected by residents to service the large population became unsustainable. Of course unions wanted to keep their power as well as preserve jobs. If I had been a auto worker or ANY worker represented by a union…I would indeed have wanted them to help me keep earning a salary and keep my good health care. Who wouldn’t?
This is something I don’t get. Everyone wants to blame the unions for all the problems. Unions did good things as well. People coming out of WW 11 and then Vietnam wanted good paying jobs to provide good lives for their families. What is so wrong about that? Not one of us would say oh no, I don’t want the highest wages I can get and no health care, and of course I don’t mind working is unsafe condition, and I don’t want a nice pension. That’s totally asinine to believe the American middle class did not want and yes deserve all of that!
As I have read it took decades of decay to bring down the once-mighty industrial giant that put the world on wheels. As I noted above the city grew to 1.8 million people in the 1950s, luring the post WW 11 population with plentiful jobs that paid good wages to stamp out automobiles for sale across the globe while giving these workers a decent middle class life. But like many American cities, Detroit’s fall began late that decade as developers starting building suburbs. Then came the 1967 riots that accelerated the number of white residents who moved to the cities north of Eight Mile Road, considered the region’s racial dividing line. At the same time, auto companies began opening plants in other cities, jobs were lost to automation and didn’t the rise of autos imported from Japan start to cut the size of the U.S. auto industry? Detroit’s property values fell, tax revenue dropped, police couldn’t control a growing murder rate, and many middle-class citizens, white and black, fled the city for safer suburbs with better schools. By 2009, the auto industry collapsed along with the economy as a whole, eventually pulling the city down with it. Government corruption under former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick only made things worse.
Yeah yeah..I know he was a Democrat but corruption in just as rampant in the Republican party so the argument that it was all the fault of Liberals is BS.
And at some point Wall Street got in there and pensions became banks for those who decided to gamble with them.
In the 2000 census, Detroit’s population fell and that is a big factor in the city’s loss The city is now littered with abandoned factories built in the postwar boom years. As the Japanese auto invasion began cutting into Detroit’s sales, General Motors, Chrysler, Ford and hundreds of auto parts companies looked outside the city to build plants that could handle modern assembly lines. With every downturn, more companies, large and small businesses abandoned the city, leaving the hulking buildings to squatters. Detroit’s tax base continued to erode. By the time the auto industry melted down in 2009, only a few factories from GM and Chrysler were left. GM is the only one with headquarters in Detroit, though it has huge research and testing centers with thousands of jobs outside the country.
All the players knew a long time ago that the city was beginning to collapse and the tax base dropped like a bucket of lead and each party and special interest tried to hang on to as much money, and privilege, as possible. Now they all want to point the finger at each other.
I read that Detroit has about 10,000 workers and 18,000 retirees. The amount of money spent on healthcare and pensions is unsustainable. So what, these people who spent their lives working in and for Detroit now deserve to lose the benefits they counted on for retirement? Those who are whining and saying well the unions should not have demanded these benefits in the first place need to put themselves in the place of some 70 year old auto worker, or teacher, or fireman, or other person who kept that city running and be told…sorry, you’re on your own. Everything you worked for is gone through no fault of your own. Just deal with it!
And oh by the way, despite Governor Rick Snyder’s push for the Medicaid expansion, the bill, called “Healthy Michigan†passed the House in bipartisan fashion, but stalled in the Republican majority lead senate because Republicans REFUSED to even vote on it! Thousands of retirees and workers could be losing their health care coverage and the Republicans want to play games because they hate Obama and don’t want any program favored by him to succeed? Of course Michigan senators will retain all their health care benefits and their pensions. Something is very wrong with this picture.
I don’t know what the answer is for Detroit. I don’t see it ever totally recovering, returning to it’s golden years. Those years depended heavily on manufacturing jobs, thousands and thousands of them. Many of those jobs are now in India or China placed there by corporations who get to pay lower wages, provide no health care while paying ridiculously excessive salaries to their CEOs and dividends to their investors. Go Wallstreet!
Over the last 5 years, partisan bickering by a bunch of politicians acting like 6 year olds on a playground has hamstrung our country. The extremes, especially in the today’s Republican party have turned “compromise†in to a nasty word, attacking any and all members who dare to reach across party lines to engage in honest and thoughtful debate facing us as Americans today. Unfortunately, as Dr. Feinman has often brilliantly addressed, we have a political system that reinforces this type of STUPID, hyper-partisan, nasty rhetoric and behavior, rewarding members who do absolutely nothing but move to their respective ideological corners and throw stink bombs at the opposing party.
Like it or not neither party has a monopoly on good ideas or motives and compromise doesn’t even have to be exclusive to those who identify as moderates. Isn’t it about time for these supposed adults to grow up?
Instead of voting to repeal Obamacare 38 times or writing hundreds of bills country wide to outlaw abortion and prevent women’s access to health care, and denying hard earned civil rights of our citizens, we as voters need to DEMAND these elected buffoons either do the jobs they were elected to do…to solve the plethora of problems facing our country, like JOBS, HEALTHCARE, RESPONSIBLE GUN LAWS, and to STOP unelected corporations and other special interests from running this country, or be thrown out after one term?
I also want to add WELCOME to Robert! It’s great to have another well spoken, reasonable participant who desires honest and concerned discussion on the issues facing our country as opposed to our few Trolls who enjoy nothing better than dumping on Liberals, insulting Liberals, and generally making asses of themselves.
The Professor ALWAYS encourages and thoroughly enjoys these wonderful discussions with people, whatever their ideology, as long as people are willing to participate with out insults to each other, and actually be willing to learn from one another.
LOL! Robert I am the resident Troll drone. I tend to react very strongly to NASTY people and sometimes to Professor Feinman’s chagrin, I tend to over do it! Actually I am a really nice person. I just have a problem to trolls of any persuasion!
Well said Maggie!
Maggie: Thank your for your welcoming. Your post is interesting. But I have trouble understanding your assertion that part of the problem with Detroit specifically was “unrestrained capitalism”. I find that hard to fit in with Detroit. I mean the agreements that the auto manufacturers,mainly GM which is the only one of the big three that has its headquarter in Detroit city properly speaking, signed with the UAW does not seem to be an example of unrestrained capitalism, or of even free market capitalism. I find it to be more an example of a protectionist crony capitalist model, the one set up in Detroit. Furthermore , in essence the anti-business mindset seems to me to have driven Detroit to the third world status it now find itself.
Well stated, Maggie, as usual! Princess Leia, I appreciate your thoughts on this as well. And Robert, you make excellent points and show you have knowledge, and are an intelligent conservative, which others on here, known as trolls, have NOT displayed! So thanks to all three of you for excellent commentary and also respect for each other!
LOL! Ok Professor Feinman….one’s unrestrained capitalism is another’s protectionist crony captialism. You say tomato I say tomaaato! Hahahaha!
I did preface my whole monologue with I am NO expert on this whole subject! I will submit to your expertise on this and every other political topic because, well….you are!
But just ask me anything about medicine or health care and I will run circles around you! 🙂
Maggie, Robert said what you are giving me credit for! LOL Robert, the reason Alabama is favored over Michigan is because Alabama is a “right to work” state, which means weak unions and workers come cheap, and often without benefits, just as in the third world nations!
I think I need to clean my glasses or get out of the sun. HAHA!! I read the responses for fast Ronald…Robert…got them mixed up. Or maybe I had a SENIOR MOMENT.
I DO know the difference between you, believe me… haha!
Isn’t it wonderful that the blog is fun again now that our Trollies are not so much around?
Robert I so apologize for my mix up. I don’t worry too much about making mistakes because I know the good professor WILL POINT THEM OUT IN ABOUT 10 SECONDS because he delights in doing so to me. He is older than I am so I give him the respect due his age and try to humor him! HAHAHAHA!!
Maggie, you are a riot! HAHAHA LOL
Do not refer to age, Maggie, as you are ONLY a few years younger LOL And yes, it is much more fun with respectable discussion. And finally, YES, Maggie, you had a SENIOR MOMENT! HAHAHA LOL
Ron: The Mercedes-Benz GL Class the best SUV in the world this year, according to Motor Trend, and that SUV is priced at over S100,000. It is made in Vance, Alabama. Do you really think that Mercedes, a company used to paying its German workers very attractive wages, is in Alabama so that it can pay third world wages to toothless hillbillies to build its flagship SUV? I don’t think so. They treat their employees well and with respect. The reason they are in Alabama is to escape the claws of the UAW, which seems to be worse than the unions back in Germany. Now the UAW wants to replicate what it has done in Detroit in Vance. They UAW wants to convince worker that they should join them so they can get better pension plans etc etc.All of course because the UAW desperately needs more union dues. I suggest that the workers in Vance, take a look at Detroit, specifically GM, and ask themselves if that is the future they want. As Charlie Haywood, an employee for 10 yrs at Mercedes said, “I’ve seen the devastation of what (the UAW has) done in Detroit, and we don’t want that here in Alabama. We don’t want somebody to come in and destroy all the hard work we’ve accomplished at this plant.”
I guess what you are saying, Robert, is that while the UAW was important in the labor movement, it may have become too powerful and possessive, and has now become an albatross around the neck of workers, undermining their long term future. While I am not an expert on labor unions, if that is so, it is truly tragic!
@Maggie
I’m finding it rather interesting that Robert’s posts are beginning to remind me of Guano.
Ronald, I am not by any means an expert on unions. All I know is that union memberships are down, 11% nationwide and that in the private sector only 6.6% of the employees are unionized. Objectively there must be a reason why employees seem to reject unions. Maybe times have changed. Who knows?
Or maybe, Robert, it is the attack on labor begun by, ironically, a labor union President, Ronald Reagan, in 1981 against the Air Traffic Controllers who he fired, putting us in danger in the skies for years, with inexperienced air traffic controllers. Reagan had been the head of the Screen Actors Guild in the late 1940s and early 1940s! After 1981, there was a rapid decline in labor unions and membership, promoted by conservatives and Republicans!
Maybe a different view of the Merdeces-Union issue? They may not be as altruistic as you think.
http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2013/06/bentley_alabamas_mercedes-benz.html_______________________________________________________________________
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/11/23/374821/after-alabama-arrests-mercedes-executive-st-louis-paper-tries-to-poach-mercedes-plant-for-missouri/
http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2013/04/united_auto_workers_union_sets.html
Thanks for the links, Maggie!
Ronald: I thought Reagan agreed with FDR that public sector unions should not be able to strike. As a matter of fact it was in that same letter I referred earlier that FDR said; “All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. … Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities.†So weren’t the air traffic controllers public sector employees? In any event, I find it interesting that over 90% of Americas private sector employees, which is composed, you would agree, of liberal Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives and independents all follow Reagan’s lead concerning the unions.And have been doing so for the last 30 years. I was curious because I had no data so I looked it up, apparently union membership has been dropping since its peak in the 50’s way before Reagan came to power. http://econintersect.com/b2evolution/blog1.php/2013/01/23/union-membership-falls-to-11-3-of-workforce-in-2012
In any event, I had no idea that Reagan , Conservatives and the Republicans were so powerful as to influence even liberal democrats employees in their decisions.
You are correct, Robert, that there has been a rapid decline in labor membership, which Reagan only accelerated, but a lot of it has to do with failure to understand that the basic labor conditions that so many of us became accustomed to are due to what labor unions fought for in the early to mid 20th century. Our historical memory has been pushed to the side, sadly!
Now, we have been taught to have bad memories of the corruption of some labor leaders, and the South has continued to oppose labor unions, and the population shift from North and East to South and West has helped the decline of labor unions, as well.
And meanwhile, do you notice how management has worked to undermine rights of workers, and have successfully stripped workers of many of the advancements brought about by labor activism? And are you not aware of the threats of many corporations to fire anyone who tries to form labor unions and membership? We are back to the Gilded Age in many respects, and that is not good for American workers!
Ronald, Some in management can have bad intentions, well not only bad intentions, in this case they are violating the law. And that is the difference we have today with the so called “gilded age”. There are laws that protect employees. Now I do no like to generalize, in the sense that all management is bad or good and that all employees are good or bad. They are all individuals, some good some bad. But what I do know is that countries that have strict labor law, where laying off an employee due to economic down turns is practically impossible, are countries that overall have persistent high unemployment and slow economic growth. In exchange you might get less disparity of income distribution, maybe, but that depends on how you measure it.
The point you make above, Robert, sounds reasonable and legitimate!
Why I’m a progressive: http://www.winningprogressive.org/progressivism-keeping-rat-st-out-of-baby-food-for-more-than-100-years
Excellent article in relation to this topic: http://www.winningprogressive.org/embracing-moral-mondays-7-days-a-week